Women In Leadership – The Challenges and Joys | 172 | See Hear Love
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Women In Leadership – The Challenges and Joys | 172 | See Hear Love


– Well, today we celebrate
all women here in Canada, and around the world. And we celebrate our
diversity, our dreams, and our hopes for a better world. A world of freedom and
possibility and equality. And today we celebrate you, women and men who are working together to ensure that all people
have equal opportunities to thrive and succeed. And today on “See Hear
Love” we highlight women who are leading organizations that are making a difference in the lives of the most vulnerable and
those that are seeking hope. That’s all coming up
next on “See Hear Love.” ♪ You are seen, you are
heard, you are loved by God. ♪ ♪ You’re not alone, you’re fully
known, you are loved by God ♪ – Well, welcome to “See Hear Love.” I’m your host, Melinda. I’m so glad you’re here as we celebrate International Women’s Day
and women all over the world. And what better women to have on the show than these amazing women
who are leaders, CEOs, and those in executive positions? Welcome. – Thank you. – Welcome. Okay, I’m gonna start
with some introductions because pretty impressive. Kim Fletcher, you’re the
vice president of marketing with the focus of philanthropy
and customer service. But you’ve really gone from corporate to the not-for-profit sector, and you were at KPMG, Microsoft
and Proctor and Gamble for years as in high-level leadership. – I was in marketing and
just felt God calling me into the not-for-profit
sector just recently. – Wow, welcome. I can’t wait to hear what you have to say. And you’re with World
Vision, one of the largest non government organizations in the world. – We are, and we’re in
countries all over the globe helping vulnerable
children in very difficult and dangerous places. – Yeah, well, thank you, welcome. And Lorna Dueck a friend and mentor. Welcome, you’re the CEO of Crossroads Christian
Communications, and YES TV. You’re the first woman CEO. – At this organization. – Yes, at this organization. – That’s right, it’s been
a 40-year-old organization. The YES TV is 20 years old, and it’s been a delight to
lead those organizations. – And you’ve also been the
executive producer and host for the 20th season of “Context
with Lorna Dueck” TV show an online production. – News and current events
looking through a biblical lens to see how might God and the
world work better together. – Beautiful, love it, glad you’re here. – Thank you. – And to my left, Christine MacMillan, former president of the
Salvation Army Canada, Bermuda and Papua New Guinea. Amazing. And now you’re an invited
member of the United Nations Multi-faith Advisory Council, and an advisor of social justice, and the chair of Global
Human Trafficking Taskforce for the World Evangelical Alliance. – [Lorna] Oh, wow. – [Melinda] You do have some leadership behind you, don’t you? – Well, you know, all those
things just fit nicely together. – [Melinda] Yes, they do. – So, you learn from each step
and each environmental site where issues are, and
you make the table wider. – [Melinda] That’s fantastic. Glad you’re here, Christine, thank you. – Thank you. – And Cheryl Nembhard, co-host, friend, president
of Exousia Media, award-winning filmmaker,
playwright, author, and social justice advocate. – I’m completely overwhelmed by being in the midst of these ladies, so just Cheryl. – We’ll be on a first name
basis for everybody today. Ladies, thank you so much for joining us as we celebrate women this
week into the lead up this week of International Women’s
Day this coming Sunday. I want to jump right
into our news and views because I think this will
really relate to you, and I’m excited and interested
to hear your thoughts. So, International Women’s Day this year, the theme is Each for Equal. And it’s this idea of individually, we make choices and responsibilities, but collectively, our voices
can be louder and heard as we look towards having
equality in the workplace, in the boardroom, in politics
and government, in media. And so that whole theme
is this each for equal, which is they’re doing
this all over the world, this symbol to show
equality in these places. And I know that you’ll have
a lot to say about that. In that, this is the news and views. In 2019, the Reykjavik
Index for Leadership did a survey which
measures how people feel about women in leadership. This is what they said about Canadians. 43% of Canadian men would not
feel comfortable with women in a position as a CEO of a major company. Okay, think about that. And one-third of Canadian women, 33%, don’t feel comfortable with a woman CEO. – My thought is I don’t
think that could be right. I would look at the data,
like, it’s really shocking. – [Melinda] Really, you think that? – I do think that’s shocking. You see such, at least the
impression I have as a CEO and watching the world, is
that you can still do this. Like, this shouldn’t be objectionable. But then, you know, there
are more CEOs named John in North America than
there are women, all told. – [Melinda] Really? – Yeah, so they are definitely a minority, a very tiny minority. – I think, well, I’d
live to give Kim go ahead because I have some thoughts here. What do you think about that? – I think times are changing. I think inclusion and
diversity is becoming a common conversation
point in corporate Canada, and not-for-profits. And I think as we continue
to transition that way, those views, I find them
shocking as well, are changing. It’s not something that I experience. I found that people
have been very gracious in their mentorship and encouraging women. I think we’re measuring more
what matters in these areas, and I think as we look at that data, we can put in roadmaps to avoid any gaps, and put in some training
and development programs where there may not be
enough women in those areas. – Yeah, that’s good. Christine? – I would get behind those statistics. Why are people saying that? My experience has been,
in the Salvation Army as equivalent of CEO, is that it’s one less job for the boys. And so as we begin to take
over in people’s minds, we’re effective, we have a
different leadership style. That can be threatening to some, and the women, the 33%
who don’t want it either, have a certain relational
way in which they, maybe, don’t have best friends as girlfriends. And maybe they see them only in one light. And so all that says to me is,
we’ve got some growing to do and some influence to bring. – Yeah, that’s good, good thoughts. Cheryl? – I love what Catherine Booth did as the– – [Melinda] Salvation Army. – As the Salvation Army
forerunner for women in the globe. I mean her leadership is just stellar. – But you know what the founder
of the Salvation Army said? “My best men are women.” (laughter) – Love her, love her. I just think I’m stuck on the 30% of women feel uncomfortable. It strikes a chord for me. I feel like we are still trying to understand, and believe that we can, and that we can be in these spaces, and carve out a path for ourselves. And I find it interesting
that the women that are brave, and bold, and are pushing against breaking that glass ceiling are feeling
sort of resisted by men, but now unsupported by their own women. So they’re really just
out there on their own sort of carving this path. So we need to rally behind those people. – Well, that’s why you’re here. That is why I have you here because we need to be a voice
for the next generation. I talked to husband,
Chris, about this stat as a man who is under the
leadership of a CEO as a woman. He said, “I think the next generation “the stats will be lower. “I think younger people will be more open, “and encouraged by to be led by women.” So I am encouraged by that. Thanks for your thoughts. We’re gonna get into more of that because there’s a lot to discuss. Well, in light of the Each for Equal International Women’s Day, we went across Canada and
interviewed women in CEO, and executive level
positions, and asked them what they are doing to ensure
equality in their workplace. Let’s take a look. (instrumental music) – So first let me
clarify that World Renew, and my leadership role in it, tries to foster gender justice because it goes beyond gender equality. And gender justice actually
involves removing the barriers that cause inequality in the first place. So that means that we
do training programs. We do policies. We look at our systems,
recruitment systems especially, to try to encourage everybody
having an opportunity to apply and also look at getting a job. And then also we look at
evaluating work that we do by doing a gender audit
as we are doing right now. And that will help us identify
ways that we can improve and grow in our work. And most of all, we want to make sure that everybody flourishes as God intends because He calls us to
live as men and women as equal valued image-bearers. – Hi, I’m Anu George Canjanathoppil,
the executive director with International Justice Mission Canada. Today is International Women’s Day. Everyday should be. And gender equality is so crucial, be it at home or at your workplace. I enjoyed so much of
that because the majority of my senior leadership were women when I was leading my team back in India. Women could be awesome at
their career and at motherhood because the office offered
the opportunity of them having an in-house crash where they
could leave their babies, and also flexible working hours so that they could be amazing at both. – I think that the most
important thing that I can do to create a gender equal
workplace as a female executive, is to make myself available
and present and engaged with the women around me. I think women need one of two things. They either need a mentor to
help them in their journey and acquire the skills and confidence, or they need a champion. They have everything that they need, and they just need someone to support. So, being available, investing the time, I think is the most important
thing that I can do. – Fantastic. Thank you Ida, Sue, and
Anu for your thoughts. Well, let’s just jump into the
same question I asked them. How are you ensuring
equality in your organization or even sphere of influence? What are you doing today? – In our organization, we had
to actually open up the books. We had to sit down with our
financial officer and say, “Let’s look and see if gender
equity is happening on wages, “on hiring, all of that.” And so it didn’t change overnight, though. So we’re a large workforce
of about 150 people, and so we spent the first
15 months just making sure we kept renewing and
strengthening those things. So it affected the bottom line. So you have to actually prove it. Like, monetarily, did you
work to get gender parity? – That’s fantastic. – And it almost cost you
something to make that to be intentional.
– It did. – [Melinda] Worth the cost, Lorna? Was it worth the cost? – Oh yeah, and I think
some of it was because we had some historic people
who came on as volunteers, and then, “Oh, maybe pay me a little bit.” And it was women who loved,
especially the ministry of doing the helpline or prayer
line, and as you realize, “You know what, actually
they’ve been here a long time, “and we need to make this right. “There needs to be pay equity.” – That’s good. Yes, so open the books and do that work, and there could be a cost. Kim, what would you say? – I think the other
thing is to have training and conversations around unconscious bias. Look at your hiring practices. Look at your promoting practices. Look at your leadership
team and your board, and put down grids to say, “Are we hitting our diversity targets? “Are we hitting our gender targets, “our community targets
that we’re looking for?” And then putting these
plans in place for training and for development so that
you can fill those gaps, it’s really important. – Yeah, that’s good. And that’s the work that
at World Vision is doing the hard work of that. – Yeah. – Yeah, fantastic, yeah. Christine? – I find myself looking at a
workplace called the world. (women agree in unison) And you’ve got wonderful
mugs here that say, “See, Hear, and Love.” Most women in our world
will not even see a clip of International Women’s Day. They will not hear of it. And so they are having even
their own decisions made by men in their lives who
are trying to influence them. So, we need to work intention with some of that, but also contextually
with different nations, and raise people up to be an influence. Some of my work in Bangladesh
with the Salvation Army saw women coming in off the street, getting into making products, and the society said, “They’re
not just prostitutes who have “made themselves a new
life, they’re women. “And maybe there’s some
possibilities here.” – So we see them. We see the possibility of that. – [Christine] We see it. – Yeah, that’s good. – For me, personally, what I always do, and I encourage people
that are in leadership, is to carve intentional
space at the table. Make space for the next
generation coming up because it is so hard, and they are unsupported, and they are feeling, in
their mind, that they can’t. And so I feel it’s incumbent
on us to sort of say, “Come on, while I’m here,
I’ve got my foot in the door. “Let me bring you through.” – Fantastic. What would you say is
the most difficult part of being a leader? You’re all in those high levels. – [Lorna] Time management. – Time management. (laughs) Yes, yes, yes, and yes. (Lorna laughs) Time management, why? But, Lorna, why? Because we’re so busy
with, like, everything and we can’t say no? Or why would you say that? – It is hard to put your
own well-being needs in part of the package. And there just is, if you
are going to step into a leadership role, you
gotta step up to the plate. And you have to be available. You have to be observant. You have to be learning. You have to be able to quiet enough that you can cast a vision. And then you just have to do the work, and have to catch the details,
and have to be ready for, you know, emergencies. You have to be able to pivot and lead, and you know, it’s a lot
of balls being juggled. (laughs) – I get that. So, time management, one
of the hardest things. Kim, what about you? – Competing priorities. – [Melinda] Oh, competing priorities. – Whether it’s at home,
work, or in your community, in your volunteerism, there’s always something that
needs to be taken care of. Someone who needs a question answered, or something arises
that you didn’t expect. And I think you have to
be agile enough to pivot, to figure out what needs to get done when. And then bring other people in, and lean on them to help you through those times of
priorities and making choices. – Yeah. Oh, that’s good. All right. – I would say knowing that
you cannot please everyone. – Oh, Christine! – And you shouldn’t
try to please everyone. – [Melinda] Speaking my language. That is tough. – And leading by the inner
conviction of what is right and what God wants. – Oh, that’s good. (chuckles) I’m like, “Yes, yes, yes, and yes.” (laughter) Why do we lead? (laughter) – I just want to say ditto
to what Christine said. I just feel like I am enough. So that brings in this
whole idea of balance, that’s my thing. And so I work, work,
work, push, push, push. It’s never good enough. I’m not, you know, sort of
taking that time to say, “I don’t need to please anyone here.” And so I’m constantly driving too hard. I think that’s a lot of
what female execs do, they drive too hard. – I would agree with all of you. I think that’s the part of being a leader, and sometimes I wonder why I’m a leader. But in this last question, what is the joy that it brings to lead your organization and your people? Because I think in the flip-side
of how difficult it can be, there is a joy in leading. What would you say is the
greatest joy in leading? – I think it’s just a sense of being where God wants you to be. You’re there because you
feel God’s giving you talents and you are able to use them. It’s beautiful. – Nice and simple but so true. Lorna, that’s good, yeah. – I think it’s having those
moments where you can pray with someone during a time of difficulty. It’s also watching
people that you’ve hired and see them grow and develop and then become leaders themselves. And when you step out of our career, it’s going to be wonderful
to have those people lead the next generation for us. – Yeah, so that mentoring legacy. Seeing the next generation, yeah. – You know, I enjoy the
creativity in leadership, is permission to fail, to move
ahead in ways that you can be the salt and the light of
the most effective way. So it’s not only growing your leadership, it’s reading the world in
which you are sprinkling that salt and sharing the light. – I love that. – Beautiful, beautiful. And then quickly, Cheryl, last thoughts? – You know, my world and
I love what you said, my office looks like a
lot of youth all the time, and so my leadership joy is mentoring. And I think this is a place
that we need to kind of lean in harder. The opportunity to pour
in, to mold, to shape. And find the ministry in the business, finding the ministry moments
in the business, yeah. – I agree with all of you. I think the joy is seeing when
you bring a young person in, to see them, and I will say
this, it’s real interesting because Lorna brought
me in as a young woman, and then to see me grow and
develop and be where I’m at is such a beautiful legacy. – [Cheryl] You opened the
door for me over here. – And Chris opened the door for Lorna. – I want to tell that
story if we have time. It’s a good story. – Okay, we will. It’s all the love here of
women looking at women, bringing them in, and
seeing them flourish. So that’s right. Thank you so much. Great, great thoughts. Well, when we come back we look at Jesus, the champion of women and how He, His life,
His leadership style, and His love for women has changed us and our leadership style today. That’s coming up. Start your week off with me in your inbox. Sign up for our weekly newsletter today for exclusive content of “See Hear Love.” Blogs, behind-the-scenes footage, and access to giveaways you’ll love. Sign up today and let’s
start our week together. Hi, I’m Melinda, host
and executive producer of “See Hear Love,” and I hope you are enjoying
our conversation today. Well, you may not realize
that “See Hear Love” is made possible by the support of viewers and listeners like you. So would you please consider
becoming a monthly donor? Any gift goes a long way in
helping us build a community of women and men who talk
about real issues and struggles as we navigate our faith together. Well, please go to
www.seehearlove.com now, and click on the big purple donate button. Thanks so much. (instrumental music) Well, we’re back. And as we look at Jesus,
champion of women, I want to hear how his
character, his life, leadership, and actions has influenced
your life and leadership style because I am always,
always focused on how Jesus informs our life and what
he does for our life. So, what would you say? Lorna, what would you say? How has Jesus made an
impact in your leadership? – Oh, I think the fact that Jesus was prophesied over by women. He was born of a woman and
then history actually turned a page and women start to
become center-stage along with Jesus’ proclamation of good news. And so that gives you
confidence that right from the heart of Christ, your voice
is part of God’s intentions for the world. – Oh, that’s empowering. I think anybody who’s like,
“How does Jesus make an impact?” That is so empowering seeing
that within the scriptures. Yeah, that’s great. – [Lorna] Yeah, they’re right there. – Yeah. – I think for me, walking
with God allows me to see those moments when he’s working. You told the story about how
someone spoke into your life and gave you an opportunity. I really try and listen for
God’s prompting in those areas to say, “Speak to this person” or “Take on this initiative.” And I think that that’s what
really calls us as leaders to make that difference. – Listening to God speaking
and then stepping out, and being that, sort of, light and love. – And being open. – And open, yeah. All right, Cheryl, what about you? Impact of Jesus in your
life and leadership? – Oh man, He is the ultimate
social justice advocate. And I pull everything
from Him, every page. And you know, He was a defender of women. I think of the women of adultery, and just sort of stepping in there. I think about the women in Samaria, and how He intentionally sent
His boys off to get lunch knowing that their bias
and all sort of misogyny would get in the way, and
He wanted to have this, sort of, historical
life-changing, still to this day, moment in time for us. And so He just always is championing us, so it just changes everything for me. So now I stand up for women. We fight for women. We speak for women because
that’s what He did. – Yeah, that’s what He did. Way to go, Jesus! – Way to go! – Yes, that’s what we like to say. Way to go, Jesus! (laughter) Christine? – You know, the U.N. has
a slogan they’re using, “Leave No one Behind.” (women, “ah”) – Beautiful – And as I think about that
reference to the woman caught in an act of adultery,
what I love about Jesus is she’s center-stage but
for all the wrong reasons. (Kim and Lorna agreeing in unison) And Jesus takes that moment
with mercy, and says simply, “Who is without sin? “Let them cast the first stone.” I want my leadership to
hear stones dropping. In my own life, I want to
be conscious of my own need to drop the stones with my own sin. But I want to encourage a
community and embrace people with that possibility. That’s the gospel. It’s good news. – It is good news. You know, I think for me, I look at Jesus, and I just love how human He is. He went for naps. He hung out in parties. – He needed quiet time. – He needed quiet time. He didn’t need to heal everybody. He wasn’t a people pleaser. It’s like, “Jesus, heal more people.” And He’s like, “No, you
know what, we’re good.” Then go on to the next
city, you know what I mean? Like, when I humanize Jesus,
and I look at His life, so much of His rhythm is good. And it’s the saying no. It’s the saying yes. It’s the defender. It’s the social justice advocate. It was the teacher. It was the prophet. Everything about Him is just like, “Wow.” But in it all, I just love the humility and His purposefulness of His life, knowing what He had to do, doing it, and then just changing the
course of history forever. (Cheryl and Kim, “Wow”) Like whoa! So, that’s why when I see
when people say, you know, “Why do you follow Him?” I walk it through and say,
“Look at this life and see.” – And the indwelling presence, you know, and He gives us the holy
spirit as a comforter, and we’re not in this solo. – No, and that’s what I love, too. It’s that sense of, “And He’s left us with His spirit “to guide and direct us each day.” – And not only did He restore dignity, but He gave new identity. And so there’s so many women in The Bible that don’t even have a name. The woman with the issue of blood, the adulterous woman, the
woman at the well, no name. And so Jesus not only comes
to restore and to renew but to find new identity in Him. It’s just an amazing thing. We have a name, you know,
and we’ve been named by Him. – Wow. Beautiful, beautiful. Well, we go now to
co-host and Bible teacher Joanna La Fleur as we talked
about the good news and gospel, Joanna is going to share the good news of being strong and courageous as you lead in your organizations or in
your sphere of influence. So, be strong and courageous
because God is with you. – [Cheryl] Amen. – I love the story of Joshua in The Bible. He’s a character I really relate to. He was the assistant to
Moses for most of his life, and so as the people were
wandering in the desert waiting to get to the promise land, he assisted Moses, who was the leader, the, “Let my people go”
leader who brought them out of Egypt. And so for many, many years, until Joshua was an older man himself, he was an assistant. But when Moses died,
Joshua became in charge. And it says in the first
verses of Joshua 1:9, God is speaking to Joshua when he gets the job of being in charge. “Be strong and courageous. “Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, “for the Lord your God “will be with you wherever you go.” In my life, I have had a lot of times of being afraid as a leader. If you’re a leader or
you’ve ever even to just stand in front of people
and do a presentation, maybe you can relate to that. I, for a long time, used
to throw up every time before I had to speak in front of people. I, thankfully, don’t do that anymore because I’m speaking a lot more, And God has shown me how to be courageous. And just like Joshua, for a lot of years, you may
be waiting in the wings, waiting for your turn to get leadership. But the truth is, when you
become the person upfront, or the person who has
to make the decisions, or the person who everyone’s listening to, sometimes it can be terrifying. But the promise we see in
Joshua 1 is not about Joshua, it’s about God. It’s that God will be
with you wherever you go. That is actually the
reason we can have courage. And same for me when I began recognizing when I would go out to speak,
that it was actually God who was with me, that he
was the one who was faithful and never letting me
fall in front of people. I actually began to have
more and more courage to do the thing. So for a lot of years, you get prepared. A lot of years you
might be following along as the assistant, the second chair to the person who’s leading. But when it becomes your turn to lead, who are you going to put your trust in? Are you going to put
your trust in yourself? Or are you going to put
your trust in the God who can actually do the
thing he said he would do in your life? That you would be strong and courageous not in your own ability, not in any hope that you
can say anything competent, or lead people well out of your own wisdom and strength, but out of the strength of God, the character of Him and who He is to you, you can lead and do
what He’s asked you to, whatever that may be,
whether big or strong. God will be faithful to
you as you look to Him, and you put your trust in Him. He will never let you down. – Thank you, Joanna, for that reminder. He will never let you down. So continue to be strong
and courageous as you lead. Well, for takeaways, last takeaways, what would you say to
encourage the next generation of young women who are
preparing themselves or are stepping into leadership, what would you say to
them on how to become a good leader or a strong leader? – Gotta be open to help. Chris mentored me when
I was younger (laughs) and you just have to be open to help. I am still high-maintenance, but I’ve had mentors for many
different areas of my life. – So, be open to help
and look for a mentor to help you in the journey. – Yeah, just ask. Just ask. – Okay, yeah. Christine? – The Bible says, “Put
your light on a stand.” As a leader, a young or older leader, you don’t know what that stand
is ever going to look like. For me, a few years ago, was cancer. My light had to shine in chemo units, radiation treatments in hospitals, but the light still shone. You cannot choose a stand
but the light is so powerful. It glows wherever God would have you be. – That’s powerful. Such great advice. Thank you, Christine. – James 4:8 says, “Draw near to God “and God will draw near to you.” And I think wherever you’re at, God is giving you experiences that’s building you a
foundation for something that He has planned for you, and He will open doors, and you just need to walk through them and see Him in those moments. – Yeah. Good, thank you, Kim. – I would just tell a young
person to trust the gifts. Trust the things that God has given you. Don’t second guess. Lean into God. And know that if He’s called you to it, it’s going to rhyme, warning, but He’ll see you through it. He really will. – All right, so God
will see us through it. Be a light on the stand, draw near to Him. Be open. And I would say, you know, when you’re afraid of
the Imposter Syndrome, if you can’t do it, God’s
spirit indwells in you to give you the power and the
courage and the confidence to do it. First of all, before I get into that, I just want to say thank you so much, you incredible, strong
leaders, as we celebrate International Women’s Day, thank you. (Kim and Lorna, “Thank you”) – You’re a wonderful woman. – Oh, thank you so much. – You’re a good woman. – Oh, thank you. (chuckles) – You are a good lamp on a stand. – [Cheryl] Way to go, boss. – Okay. (chuckles) Well, thank you for being
great leaders and mentors, and influencers in Canada
and around the world. So, I honor you and
celebrate you this week. And to you, our viewers, if
you want more information, resources, blogs on how to
be a woman in leadership, go to www.seelovehear.com And for more content,
after the show thoughts, my backstory, and bloopers,
and behind-the-scenes, go to our YouTube channel
@seehearlove and subscribe. And as you lead, be strong and courageous because God is with you. And know that you are always seen, heard, and deeply loved by God. Bye-bye. (upbeat music) Deeks Insurance is a proud sponsor of the “See Hear Love” studio.

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